One of the issues that arises in To the Lighthouse is marriage and its effects on the individual. In The Window, the characters reflect on the marriages of the past (Mr. and Mrs. Bankes and Mr. and Mrs. Carmichael), present (Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay), and future (Paul and Minta and possibly Lily and Mr. Bankes) in order to determine if marriage hinders/helps the individual. Based on all of the characters’ perspectives, determine to what extent marriage brings fulfillment in The Window. You may want to think about the following as you craft a response:
-the individual’s own thoughts about his/her past, present, or future marriage(s)
-the other characters’ reactions to the above marital relationship
-the problems which affect the above relationships and the couple’s ability to solve these problems
Be prepared to share your thoughts to each of the above in a student generated online public discussion. For any assertion you make, be ready to provide the necessary evidence and support that aid you in making your points clearly and persuasively. This online discussion will be evaluated on your close analysis of the text. In other words, your ability to present a quotation and then analyze the implications of this quotation fully will be assessed.
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Early in the book Mrs. Ramsay began to think back on her marriage with Mr. Ramsay while she we being accompanied by the atheist Mr. Tansley. At first she explains that their marriage was rushed and that they had made the decision while they were still really young. This lead Mrs. Ramsay to think that her husband "should have been a great philosopher"(10), demonstrating that she believes their young marriage inhibited her husband's academic abilities due to the new responsibilities he had with having a wife. Despite that regret she also felt like she was completing to her husbands life, and that Mr. Ramsay also needed her. She thought "she made him feel better pleased with himself than he had done yet"(11). Even though the marriage struck Mr.Ramsay's academic life short due to his wife's needs, Mrs.Ramsay also thought that she brought the moral and loving support her husband needed in order to achieve the labor that was needed to start a family and maintain a family. She also hints that perhaps Mr. Ramsay would never be the philosopher he is today without his wife.
After examening the marriages of Bankes, Carmichael, Ramsay, and the possible marriage of Lily and Bankes it is obvious that the author is trying to portray that marriage is unfulfilling and hinders individuals. A good example of this in the book is the Ramsay's relationship. Mrs. Ramsay talks about her marriage and in the beginning of her ramble she talks about her and Mr. Ramsay as "two different notes, one high, one low, struck together, seem[ing] to give each other as they combine" (39). She relates their relationship to harmony but as she describes it more she shows that this is not true. Mrs. Ramsay shows how he makes her "fatigue[d]" (39) and how she is afraid of him sometimes and so she can't tell him the truth. And also how she "hide[s] small daily things, and the children see it, and the burden it la[ys] on them-all this diminish[ing]the entire joy, the pure joy, of the two notes sounding together, and let[s] the sound die on her ear now with a dismal flatness" (39). So Mrs. Ramsay shows the reader how even though her marriage is supposedly this wonderful harmony in fact it is not all it's cracked up to be and puts somewhat of a damper on her life. What she really is in love with about her marriage is her children. Marriage itself is not fulfilling to her but the children that come from it are. This is shown after Mrs. Ramsay tells Lily she should marry. When Lily describes their house she says, "The house seemed full of children sleeping and Mrs. Ramsay listening; shaded lights and regular breathing" (49-50). This statement implies that Mrs. Ramsay enjoys her children and is completly content with them and their presence in her life. This contrasted to her husband shows us how in fact the children fulfil her life, not her husband--which implies that the author is trying to show readers that Marriage is in fact unfulfilling.
Continuing with the same claim as previously stated; the author is trying to portray that marriage is unfulfilling and hinders individuals, this can also be proven through both Carmichael's failed marriage. Mr. Carmichael was once married however his wife kicked him out and he resorts to Opium. Carmichael is turned into a very odd depressed person and the reader is given the impression that it is because he misses his wife. Mrs. Ramsay speaks of his situation to Tansley she says, "He should have been a great philosopher,"..."but he had made an unfortunate marriage" (10). Mrs. Ramsay shows us how Carmicheal could have been great however his life is hindered and unfulfilled because of his marriage. This combined with Mrs. Ramsay's unfulfillment with her marriage shows readers that marriage is unfulfilling in the book.
I somewhat agree with what Allie said about how the author seems to portray that marriage is “unfulfilling and hinders individuals”. I think to some extent this is true, especially if the marriage is rushed because then one may miss out on many opportunities, such as education as mentioned by Connor. However, I think that marriage, even if dysfunctional, has a purpose and can still be beneficial. When reflecting upon her marriage, Mrs. Ramsay feels that “possibly she might have managed things better- her husband; money; his books. But for her own part she would never for a single second regret her decision, evade difficulties, or slur over duties” (6). Mrs. Ramsay has the mindset that though she faced many difficulties and hardships, they all brought her to where she is today, and as a result has no regrets. By not living in the past, she is able to make the most of her current marital situation, though in some ways it’s dysfunctional.
I agree that this book presents the idea that marriage is unfulfilling. I also agree with the point that Alli made about how marriage puts a damper on people's lives. Another example to go along with the point that Alli made is the relationship between Lily and Mr. Bankes. Though they are not yet married, their lives still present the challenges of marriage and how it hinders individuals. A good marriage can only function with support and communication. Lily is afraid to show her paintings to Mr. Bankes, and their relationship is affected by this fear. Lily cannot expect to have a good relationship with her future husband if she cannot share what is most important to her. One quote was, "She could not show him what she wished to make of it...But it had been seen; it had been taken from her" (53). Lily's individuality is hindered because she feels that she cannot express herself and that Mr. Bankes will not accept what she puts in her paintings. Their relationship is putting a damper on Lily's life and is not letting her be the person she wants to be. If they are going to get married they have to share certain things with each other, but Lily is not ready to do so.
I agree with all the previous comments which introduce the idea of marriage being unfulfilling in the novel. There are several examples of this in the novel. One such example is depicted through Lily's reaction to the marital relationship of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay. "It scorched her, and Lily, looking at Minta, being so charming to Mr. Ramsay at the other end of the table, flinched for her exposed to these fangs,and was thankful. For at any rate, she said to herself, catching sight of the salt cellar on the pattern, she need not marry, thank Heaven: she need not undergo that degradation. She was saved from that dilution"(102).
Although marriage is depicted as being unfulfilling in the novel I think it also causes two individuals to admire and appreciate each others talents. This is depicted when Mrs. Ramsay wants Mr. Ramsay to speak at the dinner table. "Then, realising that it was because she admired him so much that she was waiting for him to speak, she felt as if somebody had been praising her husband to her and their marriage, and she glowed all over without realising that it was she herself who had praised him"(95). This quote depicts that although the marriage between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay may be unfulfilling, it does bring the two of them to appreciating each others talents and strenghts. So, although Mrs. Ramsay may not have a fulfilling marriage with Mr. Ramsay, she does respect and admire him as an individual.
Mary Kate continued the confirmation that To The Lighthouse presents marrige as unfufilling by stating what requires a marrige to be sucessful. (In her case support and communication) I would like to contine to define what makes a marrige sucessful as presented by To The Lighthouse; It is aparent that in order for a marrige to be initiated or maintained, the couple must need their spouse but not become dependant upon them. For example in Mr.Carmichael's instance, the marrige was unsucessful because he became dependant on his wife. When they separated, Mr.Carmichael was clueless. "Had he money enough to buy tobaco? Did he have to ask her for it? half-a-crown? eighteenpence?" (40). He is unable to handle simple tasks because his wife had completed these for him. Because his wife did many tasks for him he became dependant on her and caused their marrige to fail. However, the failed marrige does not fall solely on him. His wife no longer needs him and so that criteria for a marrige to be sucessful is unfufilled.
Support for the idea that the sucess of marriges is determined by the couple's need but not dependancy is also confirmed by the Ramsy family. Unlike Alli I believe that they do need and love eachother because of the description Mrs.Ramsy makes of their symbolic harmonious notes (39). However, Mr. and Mrs.Ramsy are not dependant on eachother because of their dissatisfication with their situation. This is aparent when Mrs.Ramsy recognizes Mr.Ramsy as "odious" (15). Also, Mr.Ramsy purposely distances himself from his family. He views this distance as a heroic tibute to further humanity philosophically (34,36). Thus, Mr. and Mrs. Ramsy were not dependant on eachother. However, they do need eachother. For this reason their marrige continues unlike the Carmichaels.
From the comments that have been left already, it's apparent that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay do not have the best marriage. However, I wonder about the affect this has upon their children. In a way it is like the "chicken or the egg" analogy; do the Ramsay children dislike their father because of his rocky marriage with their mother, or was it the poor relationship between Mr. Ramsay and his children that led to the hindrance of marriage?
Very early on in the book, James exemplifies a great dislike towards his father. "Had there been an axe handy, or a poker, any weapon that would have gashed a hole in his father's breast and killed him, there and then, James would have seized it" (4). These are very strong emotions to be feeling about someone, especially about one's father, but the fact that James literally wants to cause physical pain and/or kill his father indicates a strong hate relationship. True, this could be because he is upset that Mr. Ramsay says that they might not go to the Lighthouse, but to feel such strong emotion about that seems unrealistic. This may be a bit off topic of the original question, but the whole idea of marriage makes me wonder if it hinders the relationship with the whole entire family. James loves his mother; "... his wife, who was ten thousand time better in every way that he was (James thought)..." (4) and only has this bad relationship with his father. The unstable marriage that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay have could have less of an affect on the two individuals, and more of and affect on their children.
I somewhat agree with the comment that Kelsey had stated eariler. I feel that even though Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay have had problems with being a family as a whole, the way that they act as individuals determine their relationship with one another as well as family ties. Mr. Ramsay and Mrs. Ramsay take completely different approaches to life. Mr. Ramsay relies on his intellect, while Mrs. Ramsay depends on her emotions. But something they both share is the knowledge that the world around them won't last forever. They have a mind set that nothing lasts forever. In which plays around with that ideal and their lives. Mr. Ramsay reflects that even the most enduring of reputations, such as Shakespeare's, are doomed to eventual oblivion. This realization accounts for the bitter aspect of his character.
Mrs. Ramsay is as keenly aware as her husband of the passage of time and of mortality. For instance, at the notion of James growing into an adult, the world's many dangers affect her ideals about relationships and the realization of her own relationships that she holds with others, and knows that no one, not even her husband, can protect her from them.
[S]he could not say it. . . . [A]s she looked at him she began to smile, for though she had not said a word, he knew, of course he knew, that she loved him. He could not deny it. And smiling she looked out of the window and said (thinking to herself, Nothing on earth can equal this happiness)—
“Yes, you were right. It's going to be wet tomorrow. You won't be able to go.” And she looked at him smiling. For she had triumphed again. She had not said it: yet he knew.
Her reaction to the knowledge of her relationship that she holds with her spouse is markedly different from her husband's. Whereas Mr. Ramsay is bowed by the weight of his own demise, Mrs. Ramsay is fueled with the need to make precious and memorable whatever time she has on earth.
One of the problems which Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay face in their relationship is that one spouse is superior over the other and thus their marriage is weak. This also causes the children to resent their father who seems to continuously want sympathy and reassurance of his importance in life. This is depicted in the novel when Mr. Ramsay interrupts his wife and son in order to obtain sympathy from his wife: "But his son hated him. he hated him for coming up to them, for stopping and looking down at them; he hated him for interrupting them; he hated him for the exaltation and sublimity of his gestures; for the magnificence of his head; for his exactingness and egotism; but most of all he hated the twang and twitter of his father's emotion which, vibrating round them, disturbed the perfect simplicity and good sense of his relation with his mother..There he stood, demanding sympathy"(36-37).
Another piece of ev. that depicts how one spouse is superior over the other: "she(Mrs. Ramsay) did not like, even for a second, to feel finer than her husband; and further, could not bear not being entirely sure, when she spoke to him, of the truth of what she said...but it was their relation, and his coming to her like that , openly, so that anyone could see, that discomposed her; for then people said he depended on her, when they must know that of the two he was infinetely the more important"(39). Clearly, this uneven balance of importance between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay is one of the major elements that causes their marriage to be a weak one.
Going back to the effect this has on the children, as Kelsey brought up, the uneven distribution of importance between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay causes Mrs. Ramsay to be afraid of saying some things to Mr. Ramsay which puts burden on the children. "to hide small daily things, and the children seeing it, and the burden it laid on them-all this diminished the entire joy...of the two notes sounding together"(39). This quote clearly depicts that the uneven distribution of importance between the couple not only causes them to have a weak marriage, but also has a negative impact on their children.
As Kelsey mentioned earlier, Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay have a rough marriage. Although I agree with this statement, I tend to disagree with the comments that many of the previous contributors made regarding this. I think that even a bitter and seemingly unsuccessful marriage can actually benefit an individual as ironic as it seems. It seems to me that the more disdain an individual has for their spouse, the more driven they are to exemplify the opposite behavior. Mrs. Ramsay seems to be the poster child for this thought. The contempt she has for her husband and his unsympathetic demeanor towards the children actually work to motivate her to become a better mother.
Mrs. Ramsay sees the way that Mr. Ramsay treats James. She comments on, "his caustic saying that it would not be fine tomorrow" and how he "rubbed it in all over again"(15). This becomes a lesson for Mrs. Ramsay in how not to parent. It is like the saying learn from the mistakes of others. The way Mr. Ramsay kills the excitement and joy in their youngest son, causes Mrs. Ramsay to exhibit much more caution when talking to James. After Mr. Ramsay continues to spew such negativity regarding James' dream of visiting the lighthouse, Mrs. Ramsay steps in to comfort. She says, "Perhaps it will be fine tomorrow" (15). Mrs. Ramsay learns to counter Mr. Ramsay's negativity by inspiring the children and keeping a positive attitude. The poor marriage actually benefits Mrs. Ramsay's parenting skills, which seems to be a more prevalent part of her life than her marriage anyway. So I would have to say that marriages even if unsuccessful can still have a positive affect on the individual.
While I agree with the argument that Rachel just presented, I also have a counter thought. Yes, Mrs. Ramsay's parenting skills are being tested and improved, however, in whole, Mrs. Ramsay is hurting herself as an individual.
This is just my opinion, but Mrs. Ramsay seems as though she doesn't give herself any self-respect, and after reading more into the book it seems as though she doesn't want self respect. "...she often felt she was nothing but a sponge sopped full of human emotion. Then he said, Damn you. He said, It must rain. He said, It won't rain; and instantly a Heaven of security opened before her. There was nobody she reverenced more. She was not good enough to tie his shoe strings he felt" (32). This passage reflects Mrs. Ramsay's view on her marriage. She doesn't see her groveling at his feet as a hindrance, but isn't that what makes the marriage so unbalanced? Huda was talking about Mr. Ramsay's superiority, and I completely agree. Mrs. Ramsay addressed the bad qualities about her husband and said that she "reverenced" him, she has complete and utter respect for this man who treats her as if she's not as important.
So while Mrs. Ramsay's parenting is being improved greatly, as Rachel stated, her self respect for herself is diminishing. She may not be aware of it, and maybe she even likes serving her husband, (and maybe that's what women were expected to do during this time period) but the fact that she doesn't mind being her husband's servant is an indication of how unstable the marriage is.
I agree completely with Kelsey's comment about how Mrs. Ramsay is hurting herself as an individual. I do believe that she wants self-respect, however. This is evident towards the end of The Window. When she walks into her bedroom, she finds her husband reading. As they sat there in silence, "She became aware that she wanted him to say something" (122). She wants her husband to respect her and be able to talk to her. Because she is focusing so much on this she is hindering herself as an individual. She is so worried about what other people say to her and this doesn't help her at all because it puts a damper on her marriage. She expects too much of her husband.
I also wanted to address this new idea of expectations when it comes to marriage being unfulfilling. The fact that Mrs. Ramsay is expecting so much of her husband is making their relationship crumble. Using the same evidence as before, she wants Mr. Ramsay to talk and communicate about certain things with her, but he really has a hard time doing so. She is trying to force him into doing something he is not very good at. Also, because she is so focused on her expectations of others, she does not have time to think about other people's feelings. Mrs. Ramsay tries to get her husband to talk to her even though she does not tell him the one thing he wants to hear, "I love you." Mr. Ramsay "wanted something-wanted the thing she always found it so difficult to give him; wanted her to tell him that she loved him" (123). If she wants her husband to communicate with her, then she must do the same. Love is the foundation of a marriage, and if they cannot show/tell it, then their marriage is unfulfilling.
To touch on what Kelsey said, first, I'd like to point out that the marriage between Mr. And Mrs. Ramsay isn't awful, in fact, on page 72 towards the bottom, Lily is watching Mr. and Mrs. R while they're out on a walk, watching two of their eight children play ball. Lily sees the two of them as "the symbols of marriage, husband and wife". Lily is not married, and Mrs. R has this idea in her head that marriage is inevitability, and frequently tries to talk to Lily about it. Lily is insistently independent, a painter, and is unwed a 33 year old with no apparent intentions of ever tying the knot. However in that moment, she found the image of the long time married couple to be symbolic of the sacrament. Lily was able to see something in the Ramsays in that moment she found comforting and symbolic, which is significant because of Lily's views of marriage. Clearly, their marriage isn't as terrible as they let on.
On that note, it is my belief that the reason the Ramsays give the impression of being in a poor marriage is because, frankly, Mr. Ramsay is a conceited jerk with no self esteem to speak of and who relies so heavily on his wife for every little thing though more often than not he treats her like dirt. For example, there is an argument between Mr. and Mrs. R that frequently comes up. Mrs. R favors her youngest child, her son James. James is six years old and is very excited about the possibility of a trip to the lighthouse. His mother has issues with telling her son no, so she refuses to dampen his enthusiasm when Mr. Ramsay steps in and tells James with complete certainty that the weather will not permit a trip to the lighthouse.(this is on page 10). An argument ensues. "Damn you" he yells at his wife. Later, during a walk they share together on page 68, Mrs. R hopes that he will apologize, "[w]hat he had wanted to tell her, she asked, thinking it was about the lighthouse; that he was sorry that he had said 'damn you.' But no." He does not apologize to her for yelling at her, and cursing at her in front of their six year old, even when the two are at their best with each other. Clearly, he is a jerk. In my next post, tomorrow, I plan to prove his lack of self esteem and his conceitedness, in addition to posting my claim! Tune in!
On an almost related thought, there’s a really good quote on page 36 about James hating his father, it's at the bottom, directly after VII. "But his son hates him. He hated him for interrupting them..."
We are supposed to examine the concept of marriage and its effect on the individual. But I think that in the Ramsey’s case, there are more examples of the individual affecting the marriage. Brittany said that in her future post she intends to comment on Mr. Ramsey’s lack of self esteem and his conceitedness, and earlier in her post she said that their marriage isn't as terrible as they let on. But I slightly disagree, I would say that his lack of internal confidence and continual need for his wife’s comfort and assurance leads to his bitter marriage. He is always short tempered and rude to everyone, including his own family as was seen on page 10 when he put down his youngest son’s hope of seeing the lighthouse the following day. By being short tempered and rude he uses it as a façade to cover his internal struggles with his confidence. And since he has no self confidence he needs others to support him—his wife. After harshly speaking to her , “Damn you” he says after thinking to himself, “The extraordinary irrationality of her remark, the folly of women’s minds enraged him…she flew in the face of facts, made his children hope what was utterly out of the question, in effect, told lies” (32). He says this all because he thought he was right in concluding they would not be able to see the lighthouse because of the weather and she said “How did he know?...The wind often changed”. Then after all that he wants his wife to tell him that she loves him, he "wanted something--wanted the thing she always found it so difficult to give him; wanted her to tell him that she loved him" (123). Thus leading to a bitter and unstable marriage relationship.
I noticed that Michelle and Brittany among others brought up the fight between the Ramsay's on page 32 where Mr. Ramsay actually curses at Mrs. Ramsay because of her unrealistic attitude regarding visiting the lighthouse. While I agree with what was said regarding Mr. Ramsay's often unnecessarily harsh demeanor towards his children, I don't think that enough credit is being given to him. He may a self-absorbed, arrogant jerk, but I noticed that he would probably be much worse if he was not in his current marriage. This thought may be a little far off, but I am sticking to my opinion that a marriage, no matter how the outcome, is a learning experience that will ultimately be beneficial to both parties involved.
Going back to that specific fight, many people highlighted the fact that Mr. Ramsay never apologized, despite Mrs. Ramsay's longing for one. I'm not quite sure of the validity of this. I think that in his own way, Mr. Ramsay did apologize right after the fight, because he was regretting his rash decision to scream at his wife. Mrs. Ramsay is visibly upset upon being yelled at, so afterwards Mr. Ramsay says "Very humbly, at length...that he would step over and ask the Coastguard if she liked" (32). Clearly this was a difficult thing for Mr. Ramsay to do, that is evident by the word choice "humbly" and "at length". It seems to me that Mr. Ramsay is stepping outside of his stubborn self, and admitting at least a tiny bit of uncertainty. It may not have been the apology that Mrs. Ramsay was hoping for, but I think it shows some progress on the part of Mr. Ramsay. Through his marriage he is at least starting to learn that he can't be so harsh and sure all of the time, he has to consider the feelings of others. He still has more learning to do of course, but I think that his marriage is helpful in such development.
Going along with the comments regarding the dispute between Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey around page 32, I agree with Rachel's assertion that Mr. Ramsey's willingness to ask the Coastguards about the weather is his version of an apology. However, I also think that Mrs. Ramsey is very grateful for it and she is completely satisfied with the apology. Before he offers to ask the Coastguard, Mrs. Ramsey was disgusted with him. She said his actions were "so horrible an outrage of human decency that, without replying, dazed and blinded ... nothing to be said"(32). However, moments later, after his apology, she says there is nobody "whom she reverenced as she reverenced him"(32). This small, yet incredibly meaningful, action by Mr. Ramsey is enough to make his wife completely forgive him for his previous selfishness. She went from being so angry that she couldn't even talk to him to revering him like none other. I think it is moments like these, when one spouse is able to realize what the other wants and can provide that desire without needing to be asked, that save their relationship. In this case, Mr. Ramsey realizes that his wife wants him to stop being so stubborn; there are also times when Mrs. Ramsey realizes Mr. Ramsey needs his self-esteem boosted, so she is ready to compliment him. It also emphasizes the ability of the Ramseys to reach compromises to solve the problems in their relationship because Mr. Ramsey goes against his willful personality in order to appease his wife's hope that he will be more considerate toward both the feelings of his children and her own opinion.
I would say that the over all consensus of this blog is the Window expresses that marriage has its drawbacks. In my opinion it is the tradition of the culture that one must be married in order to function in society that perpetuates the unhappiness. For example Mrs. Ramsay seems unhappy with her marriage as Connor points out, but also is unhappy with the world and her inability as a married woman the change it or speak her mind. She dislikes the box society puts her in and realizes she is perpetuating the stereotype with her daughters despite the discontent it has caused her. "...wondering is she had indeed put any pressure upon Minta, who was only twenty-four, to make up her mind. She was uneasy," (60). If anything I think Mrs. Ramsay likes being married to her husband but resents to gender roles society forces them into. The culture of the time causes the discontent due to its gender expectations, not the actual marriages themselves.
Unlike Huda and Brittany, I believe that one spouse does not have dominance over the other. I agree with Mark when he states that both Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay help each other out when needed. The Ramsays' marriage does have faults like all marriages because it is impossible for marriage to fulfill its utopian expectation of personal happiness. For example, Mrs. Ramsay is unhappy because of the state of her house. "the whole room from floor to celing... got shabbier and shabbier summer after summer" (27). This disappointment is completely unrelated to her satisfaction with the marriage. Yet, "the small daily things...all this diminished the entire joy" (39). It is impossible for a marriage to be completely happy despite the compatability between the couple. Therefore, the Ramsays dissatisfaction is acredited to things out of their control and can be just as sucessful as any other marriage.
I definitely agree with alex. All marriages will have their ups, downs, and everything in the middle. However, hardships do not always come from one member of the marriage. In the Ramsey's case the marital problems came from each spouse. Mrs. Ramsey is just overall an unhappy individual. She is unhappy with her geander role, and her inablity to do anything about it (59).
I have to disagree with Nina's claim that the pressure to be married is what brings about unhappiness in relationships. While Mrs. Ramsey did feel this pressure, she still enjoys her marriage and helps further that same pressure by trying to convince Lily to become married. While Lily reflects on a conversation she had with Mrs. Ramsey, she remembers her saying, "They all must marry...an unmarried woman has missed the best of life"(49). Mrs. Ramsey's contention that being married brings about the best things in life clearly displays her happiness and contentment with the current state of her relationship, and in no way does it show even a hint of unhappiness. However, Lily counters, saying that she "liked to be alone; she liked to be herself; she was not made for [marriage]"(50) . It is Lily, not Mrs. Ramsay, who despises the societal expectation to marry and represents the woman who refuses to simply follow what is expected of her.
Going back to one of alli's previous comments about marriage hindering an individual, I can sort of agree. However, I believe marriage can be considered a stepping stone to happiness. Unfortunately for the Carmichael's their marriage did not lead to the happiness they would have liked to. It turned out to be a horrible experience for them. After Mr. Carmichael got kicked out he became a depressed drug addict. Marriage is more of an opportunity for happiness, not a guarantee.
i agree with Brittany in her comment that marriage is not awful if there is balance in between the couple. I think that The Ramsays have an okay marriage, better than most because they balance one another. Mr. Ramsay is the stern one who shows the disciplinary force in their couple. That is why James dislikes him so much when the book states "Had there been an axe handy, or a poker, any weapon that would have gashed a hole in his father's breast and killed him, there and then, James would have seized it" (4). Yet his mother provides a nice balance by being kind hearted to James in order to expose to both sides of life when he is growing up.That's why she consoles James on page 15. She knows that her husband is harsh at times and tries to be nice in order to show balance in between them.
I do not agree with what RachelNelson said about how marriage is always beneficial to both spouses. An unsuccessful marriage, in my opinion, is one where either or both spouses are unhappy. I think that Mrs. Ramsey is clearly unhappy and thus, her marriage is unsuccessful. I think her unhappiness can be blamed on Mr. Ramsay: "she did not like, even for a second, to feel finer than her husband; and further, could not bear not being entirely sure, when she spoke to him , of the truth of what she said" (39). Mrs. Ramsay clearly feels inferior to her husband. She is unhappy nad it is because of the nature of her husband. Mrs. Ramsay would be much happier if she was not married.
I agree with Rachel in the sense that, yes, for a marriage to work both people have to be happy. Fact.
However, regardless of how much of a jerk or angry or egotistical Mr. Ramsay is, Mrs Ramsay is happy and loves him very much.
On page 66, Mr. and Mrs. R are taking a walk. Mrs. Ramsay expresses her concern about her son, Jasper's hobby shooting birds. Mr. R comforts her, "it was natural in a boy, and he trusted he would find better ways of amusing himself before long." Mrs R appreciates this and takes comfort in her husbands assurances, "her husband was so sensible, so just." She is undeniably happy, and admires and can see the good in her husband.
In addition to this, Mrs R delights in the idea of marriage, frequently pushing it on her friends. For instance, Lily and Mr. Bankes are friends and take walks together. On page 71 Mrs R sees the two of them on a walk, "Did that not mean they would marry? Yes, it must! What an admirable idea! They must Marry!"
She is clearly overjoyed by the idea of two of her friends getting married. Mrs R is a sweet woman, and had she been unhappy in her own marriage would not wish unhappiness unto her friends by mongering the idea of marriage. If she did not feel that her friends would be happier married, she would not pressure them into. Clearly, the idea of marriage bringing happiness comes from her own, happy, marriage.
I agree with Brittany in the sense that they both love one another. In order for a marriage to work you have to understand how love is shown. I believe that under Mr. Ramsay's misleading behavior, Mrs. Ramsay sees that he truely does in fact love her.
"Could loving, as people called it, make her and Mrs. Ramsay one? for it was not knowledge but unity that she desired, not inscriptions on tablets, nothing that could be written in any language known to men, but intimacy itself, which is knowledge, she had thought, leaning her head on Mrs. Ramsay's knee" (37).
Mrs. Ramsay knows what she does of the world by the former method, while Mr. Ramsay depends upon “inscriptions on tablets.” This explains their views on their lives and how they live them and still manage to love one another as well. Here, Lily wonders how one person comes to truly know another, and figures out the line that separates emotions from intellect. This is what separates Mrs. Ramsay from her husband. But yet, both are willing to work together to know their love for one another.
I understand what Liz is saying, and I completely agree. I want to change my earlier opinion how Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay’s marriage is bitter and full of unhappiness. After reading Liz’s view on the marriage, I began to see their past disputes in a different light. That in fighting and disagreeing, in reality they are acting like a normal couple and this is how they show their love and devotion to eachother. If in a marriage, the couple never had any disputes, it would show that then there was no actual love, it is only complacency. And the former comment can sort of connect to my previous one in that Mrs. Ramsay is the more grounded of the two. She yearns for stability and unity where Mr. Ramsay yearns for “inscriptions on tablets”, something that is less stable and thus he is in a more confused state acting out with harsh words and actions.
I agree with Masood -who i think was restating brittany's thesis- that although Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey are almost polar opposites in dispostion (for example, on page 39 Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey are described through the analogy of "two different notes, one high, one low, struck together"), their marriage is a success because they balance eachother out. it goes on to identify both Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey, describing mr. R's inner feelings of insignificance and his dependance on Mrs. R. And then the rest of the passage on 39 says "this [Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey's differences] diminished the entire joy, the pure joy, of the two notes sounding together". And then i think this relates to rachel kunze's response to rachel nelson's claim that marriage is ultimately beneficial to both spouses. rachel k argued that "An unsuccessful marriage is one where either or both spouses are unhappy. I think that Mrs. Ramsey is clearly unhappy and thus, her marriage is unsuccessful." However, using all the previously stated evidence that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey are happily married even though Mr. R sometimes does treat Mrs. R and their children terribly and is overly dependent on Mrs. R for reassurance and etc, it can be ascertained that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey have a successful marriage thus far (as Lily later notes Mr. and Mrs. R as a symbol for marriage) even though maybe their "joy" isnt completely "pure". just because there may sometimes be a clash of Mr. and Mrs. R's personalities that might furthermore result in hurt or resentment, it is temporary or insignificant enough that their marriage carries on successfully. I think what i'm trying to say is success is not directly related to complete happiness.
Just to further my previous statement and make sense of it, I agree with Mark and yet I do not. Society's role is a hard complex to explain because while Mark is correct that Mrs. Ramsay is happy with some aspects of her marriage like where Mr. Ramsay kisses her hand quickly on their walk (70), but other parts she is not. An example of this is when he is talking and she expresses the thought of killing herself because she is sick of his little "phrase-games" (69). These two examples express the personal differences they have for each other, but does not include society’s burden. There is this repeated part about the cost of the roof repair over and over again that Mrs. Ramsay wants to bring up to her husband, but can't because it is not her place to talk of such things because she is a woman. “…not being able to tell him the truth, being afraid…with a dismal flatness,” (39). In this day and age talking about or even taking care of the household expenses is accepted, but the culture of the book is different. This causes space between the two as expressed by the “dismal flatness” of their notes together, meaning they are in disagreement. And while Mark was correct about family being extremely important to Mrs. Ramsay, society has made her believe that she could never provide for her family, thus her conversation with Lily about marriage. “…of the two he was infinitely the more important, and what she gave to the world, in comparison with what he gave, negligible,” (39). So basically society brainwashes young women into thinking that men are superior and necessary for having a functional family. But later in life women, like Mrs. Ramsay, wonder if they could have done more and resent their husbands for it, thus the some of the problems in the Ramsay’s relationship. One can love another, but is not always meant to marry that person because of differing philosophies in life. Mr. And Mrs. Ramsay love each other, but are not well suited for each other’s personalities.
Marriage, though it can inhibit ones personal aspirations, can bond two into unity which allows one to complete the other. By completing another I mean that the wife may provide their husband a different view on life and the world and in turn the husband can fulfill his wife by providing her insight in which he had discovered. Under marriage, two can provide the other with certain understanding they would not have been able to reach alone. For example Mrs. Ramsay sates that her husband has deep philosophical insight but is unable to see simpler things like "the flowers" and his "own daughters beauty". Mrs. Ramsay was able to see these simpler things, while Mr. Ramsay was able to see the more complex themes in life. Together Mr. And Mrs. Ramsay shared their different insights therefore completing their differing understanding, Mrs. Ramsay claims that her husbands insight " often astonished her"(70) showing that her husband gave his understanding to his wife and also Mrs. Ramsay reminds Mr. Ramsay of his daughters potential beauty by saying "Prue was gong to be far more beautiful"(67) therefore showing Mr. Ramsay something he did not see and therefore completing his understanding.
I disagree with Nina. While I do think you have a valid point that the culture of society at that time in history is an interesting factor when considering the success or failure of marriage. However, i think you arent really thinking of the Ramseys' culture's affect on their marriage in the correct frame of reference. When you said "this repeated part about the cost of the roof repair over and over again that Mrs. Ramsay wants to bring up to her husband, but can't because it is not her place to talk of such things because she is a woman. '…not being able to tell him the truth, being afraid…with a dismal flatness,' (39). In this day and age talking about or even taking care of the household expenses is accepted, but the culture of the book is different. This causes space between the two as expressed by the 'dismal flatness' of their notes together, meaning they are in disagreement.", you are attempting to argue that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey's marriage is not successful because they "are not well suited for each other’s personalities", but what you are really saying is that their marriage is a failure because Mrs. Ramsey is a woman and Mr. Ramsey is a man. While one must acknowledge that Mr. Ramsey should make an effort to attend to the household expenses, one moreover realizes that Mrs. R, by not saying anything to her husband b/c it would not be her place as a woman and wife, is fufilling her role (as dictated by the society of that time) as a wife and woman. One realizes that if he were a better man Mr. Ramsey would put more of an effort into household expenses like the roof, but it is only one menial character flaw and he does in other ways fufill his role as a man, husband, and breadwinner (for example his success in philosophy).
You then conclude that "society brainwashes young women into thinking that men are superior and necessary for having a functional family but later in life women, like Mrs. Ramsay, wonder if they could have done more and resent their husbands for it, thus the some of the problems in the Ramsay’s relationship.". (If you can not provide any textual evidence to support the claim that housewives end up resenting their husbands, this is a totally invalid conclusion.) And then this again sort of proves that you are not thinking about that time period's societal pressures on marriage in the right context. You are frowning upon that era's societal values because today's societal values are different and in your opinion probably better regarding women's rights. However, at that time, society was that way. And as it was, both Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey were fufilling their roles as appropriated by their society's values, thus they were in fact successful.
p.s. i also agree with conor's above post. (con that ^ was really really insightful.)
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